June 27, 2008

Breaking News: I Have An Opinion

Like many of you, dear readers, I am a subscriber and fan of the gang-o-bloggers at Fistful of Talent. The other day I noticed something on the site that initially made me angry, then confused and then sad.

No, they were not blogging about my love life. Although THAT topic makes me angry, confused and sad all at once sometimes!

You see, Jessica Lee wrote a fantastic post titled "The Gay Experience and Your Employment / Recruiting Brand..." She writes,

The best question a candidate has ever asked me during an interview, hands down, was this:

"I'm openly gay. How are gay employees treated here? And is the culture receptive to GLBT [Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Trans gender] staff?"

She goes on to say,

So let me ask you this - if posed the above question by a candidate, would you know how to answer it? And as a recruiting or HR pro, is the “gay experience” at your company something that’s on your radar?

Let’s get this out of the way first - this isn't and can't be a question of morals or ethics. This is simply reality for ya as California is now the second state to marry same-sex couples and now the first ready to grant licenses to couples from any state. This spills over into the benefits arena for HR pros, yeah? And sure, sexual orientation doesn’t fall under a Federal protected class for EEO, but there are a handful of states and cities in which it does. So what does this mean to you? And do you know what it means to be a GLBT friendly employer?

As the SHRM conference winds down, there, we're even prompted by the outgoing Sue Meisinger who urged HR pros at her opening remarks to champion GLBT issues in the workplace.

Jessica then talks about the NY Times story about Lisa Sherman and her (sometimes very frightening) experiences as a gay executive. It was an all around awesome post about a very relevant issue to recruiting and HR pros and employees.

So what is my problem? What made me angry, then confused and then sad? I'm getting there. Stick with me.

Those of you who read FOT know there is usually an "Editor's Note" at the end of every post (authored by Kris Dunn, the creator of FOT). It's usually a short bio of the FOT contributor as well as a tongue-in-cheek comment on the subject matter. For example,

Editor's Note - Michael Homula is the founder of Bearing Fruit Consulting, a national recruiting consulting firm based out of Michigan. Prior to founding BFC, Michael served as Director of Recruiting / Talent Management for multiple companies in the Financial Services industry. FOT team and readers, please move to Michael's table in an orderly and civil fashion to soak up the benefits of being with the "cool" crowd...

So, after reading Jessica's fantastic post I went on to read the Editor's Note. Here is what it said (emphasis mine):

Editor's Note - Jessica Lee is an Employment Manager for APCO Worldwide, a global PR firm in D.C. Like most upscale HR pros, she spends half of her time on recruiting, the other half on ER, Training and OD. In a rare serious Editor's note, this post is presented not to debate the moral issues surrounding gay rights, but the appearance of employment branding to this segment of the candidate population - a real issue for recruiters and HR pros alike...

****

Now, a disclaimer of my own: Some people may disagree with me on this post. That is fine. It is simply my opinion. I truly hope it is not taken as a personal attack, as that is not my intention.

****

When I read the editor's note, the thoughts that came to my mind were these:

The editor's note, for whatever reason, appears to be overly concerned with the topic of the moral nature of gay rights.

In my opinion, there IS no moral issue with gay rights.

First, I don't think being gay or “participating in a gay lifestyle” is immoral.

Second, even if I did think gay = immoral, plenty of "immoral" people / those who act "immorally" have the legal right to marry the person of their choice without regard to the other person's

  • Race,
  • Color,
  • National origin,
  • Disability,
  • Religion,
  • Pregnancy / parental status,
  • Economic standing,
  • Age (once majority is reached),
  • Genetics,
  • Tastes in music,
  • Ability to dance,
  • Preference for extreme sports,
  • Salt and pepper shaker collection count

And so on and so forth into infinity and beyond. Most state laws say you have the right to be married (once you reach legal age) to one person at a time and you have to get a license in order to make the marriage legal / ensure your rights. That’s it.

Eliot Spitzer has the legal right to be married. In my book, he's an immoral douche bag for several reasons. That doesn't change his legal right to continue in his marriage or get divorced and, if he wants to (after that) remarry.

I understand not everyone uses their blog the same way I do mine: to express myself, my views, my journey through HR and life. I also understand that sometimes, especially with controversial issues, a Blogger will do their best to very specifically spell out what they ARE saying and what they are NOT saying.

Jessica pointed out in the body of the post, “…This isn't and can't be a question of morals or ethics. This is simply reality…” So why was it brought up again in the Editor’s note? I just don't understand the point of trying so hard to appear neutral. State your case and be done with it. Don’t try to "please all of the people, all of the time". And unfortunately, in this instance, the “neutrality” of the Editor’s Note came across to me as not genuine.

I may be totally wrong. I may be half wrong. I may be right. Either way, everyone is entitled to their opinion as well as whether or not they choose to give it in a public forum.

But my opinion (& question) is this: SHRM took a position at their convention and Sue Meisinger referred to GLBT rights as human rights. Is SHRM more progressive than FOT?

23 comments:

jessica lee 6/27/08 3:54 PM  

Thanks for the blog love! I hadn't thought too much about KD's editor's note. Can't speak for him and won't try to either but you are sooo West Coast! lol. All I have to say though is don't forget how big and wide the middle of America is. : ) I'm just sayin'.......

HRLori 6/27/08 4:29 PM  

And your opinion is wonderful. Thanks for putting this out there. There is a very, very long SHRM thread right now that is debating the back and forth of gay marriage (with a very religious tone to it). It's so refreshing to once again hear the dulcet tones of logic.

HR Wench 6/27/08 4:36 PM  

Jessica - I'm about 60% liberal and 40% conservative most days.

HR Lori - Don't get me started on those who share my religion and not my logic. It makes my head hurt!!

Rachel - Employment File 6/27/08 5:19 PM  

Interesting that we're so concerned about avoiding offending people. Can't we all just have our own opinions without apologizing for it?

We all know from my blog that I'm gay friendly. I like to use my blog to push my pro-gay agenda. That's the fun of blogging.

HR Maven 6/27/08 5:55 PM  

There are few visionaries who can see behind the 'hire like me.' Pity the fabulous, terrific, cutting edge HR professionals faced with the question - who would in a heartbeat say 'we have a kick ass and embracing culture' knowing in his/her heart that it is just not the case.

Standing on the fence between the 'hire like me' and 'hire those who will challenge us.'

jessica lee 6/27/08 6:16 PM  

I have to clarify real quickly just so no one mistakes my comment above... I say that the middle of America is large just to remind us that as "progressive" as we might think we are, there are still a lot of people out there who are opposed to gay rights and may have serious moral or ethical issues with the me saying we've got to consider the GLBT perspective. I felt it was important to purposely and explicitly say that GLBT issues are a reality and we can't get caught up in a debate about morality because I don't think America is that far along... KD can speak for himself abd his editor's note, but saying it twice doesn't hurt. The US of A is a big place and acceptance of GLBT isn't a complete given in all parts of our lovely country. Okay. That's it for me!

HR Wench 6/27/08 6:26 PM  

Rachel - THANK YOU! When speaking about a specific person, especially someone I like, I feel the need to be concerned about offending. Speaking about a general "thing", I don't.

HR Maven - Wow, you really ARE an HR Maven!! Wise words.

Jessica - That's just it: WHO CARES if they are offended. If you think one way or the other, just say it. If someone is offended simply by you having a different opinion than them, they have way more problems than you could ever solve by walking on eggshells around them. Saying "people who think x versus y are idiots" is one thing. Saying "I think x and I disagree with y" is another.

Bonnie Lowe 6/27/08 10:17 PM  

At our company's mandatory Sexual Harassment Avoidance training last week, the lawyer-trainer posed a question based on a recent true story: "Joe's gay coworker, Bob, just married his longtime boyfriend and put a photo of their wedding on his desk at work. Joe complained to management, saying he was highly offended by the photo because, according to his religion, gay marriage is immoral. Is there a sexual harassment issue here?"

We're in California, which just legalized gay marriage. BTW, the entire class pretty much said Joe is the one with the problem (and no, there's no sexual harassment issue).

Rick 6/28/08 1:55 AM  

I had a completely different interpretation of that editorial comment.

I thought "Of course there is a moral issue with gay rights - it's the moral question of whether people should have equal rights under the law and in the workplace."

My initial reaction was that the editor had been a weasel for wanting to avoid that debate.
(The link to the original post is broken so I'm hmaking a few asumptions here.)

Having read your post I see that he was, perhaps, trying to forestall a debate about whether or not homosexuality is a sin.

My initial assumptions around the moral question in this debate were different from his.

Perhaps it's a transatlantic thing. Religious fag-bashers are, I think, more marginalised in Europe than in the USA.

Michael Homula 6/28/08 6:59 AM  

Can't speak for Kris for sure but it would seem to me he wanted to keep the discussion focused on HR, Recruiting, employment law and how companies need to be seriously thinking about the gay community in the workplace. Nothing more. Nothing less. To read anything more into his comments is a significant mistake and a journey into hyper sensitivity when the discussion should be focused on the intended purpose of the blog post.

We live in a very diverse country. It is really the beauty and majesty of America and all views, under constitutional law, are protected. Too many men and women died for that to remain true. No matter what side you fall on this issue morally, politically or on faith all opinions matter, should be openly and freely accepted as opinion and respected. No one agenda or opinion should be forced on another.

Now, can we get back to talking about the real purpose of the blog post?

HR Wench 6/28/08 9:47 AM  

Bonnie - Thanks for stopping by the blog! Sounds like the sexual harassment class at your company knows what they are talking about. Good for them!

Rick - Thanks for adding your 2 cents and alerting me that the link was broken. I fixed it so it should be working now.

Michael - Thanks for your comment. I disagree that I was hyper sensitive. However, I understand that those who may not feel strongly, as I do, that legal rights in this country should have nothing to do with what religion is most popular may disagree.

HR Minion 6/28/08 3:41 PM  

Hell Yeah Wench! This is a human rights issue and there is only one correct answer: Separate is never equal.

Laurie 6/28/08 3:43 PM  

Can't speak for Kris for sure but it would seem to me he wanted to keep the discussion focused on HR, Recruiting, employment law and how companies need to be seriously thinking about the gay community in the workplace. Nothing more. Nothing less. To read anything more into his comments is a significant mistake and a journey into hyper sensitivity when the discussion should be focused on the intended purpose of the blog post.

Wait, who was hypersensitive first? I'm lost.

Lance 6/28/08 4:09 PM  

it would seem to me he wanted to keep the discussion focused on HR, Recruiting, employment law and how companies need to be seriously thinking about the gay community in the workplace

I think this was the purpose. I have worked with a lot of employers that have certain views that I don't hold. With those sorts of persons, I direct the conversation in this direction. Even without the legal implications, we aren't taking people out of our talent pool for non-qualified reasons.

When you take that out of the equation, we can talk about how we make the environment acceptable and make sure our hiring processes are audited for this. When you're dealing with an ultra conservative boss, it is about the only thing that can cut through what I consider to be a bullshit argument. And considering the wide audience that reads the blog, I can see how it would get out of hand and you wouldn't want to deal with it on that specific forum.

I don't think I would do that but I would attempt to focus the conversation in the comments if it got off that focus though. I think that is perfectly appropriate.

Lance
YourHRGuy.com

HR Wench 6/28/08 4:18 PM  

Wow - lots of feedback! Thanks Minion, Laurs and Lance.

PS Lance, it is ROASTING here at home. You're lucky you're in Vegas with the super-duper air conditioning everywhere you go!!!

Lea Setegn 6/28/08 7:10 PM  

As a bisexual woman with a female fiance, I have to say that from the little of the original post that I read here, I'm glad to see that the issue of GLBT culture in the workplace is getting attention. I am about to start job-hunting again, and I think I'm going to ask the question about the GLBT friendliness of anyplace I consider working.

At my last job, I wored for a big law firm with great benefits for domestic partners and a GLBT recruiting program for lawyers (but not other staff members, and I'm not a lawyer). However, it quickly became obvious to me that few people were comfortable when I talked about my partner/fiance. I never put a picture of us on my desk, and didn't feel that I could. I live in a city that's south of the Mason/Dixon line but is not the Deep South. I know that things would be easier for us on the West Coast or the Northeast, but my fiance's family all lives here and I really like my city.

HR Wench, I understand why the Editor's Note bothers you. I'm glad you said something. It doesn't bother me, however, because I'd rather read a discussion of how recruiters/interviews/managers will handle that question, and whether they think it's appropriate to ask. I don't want to read comments from HR folks debating whether or not I can marry my fiance for moral reasons or any other. Perhaps KD could have phrased it better, but I understand why he tried at all.

HR Wench 6/28/08 9:32 PM  

Lea - Thank you so much for your thoughts on this issue! Also - welcome to HR. I just checked out your blog and subscribed. :)

HR Maven 6/29/08 7:49 AM  

I had a share an experience with midwest (where I reside) and a friend's experience on the West Coast.

I like to think that I am as embracing as possible. I am really 'all about the person' and not the personal. I do not surround myself with people just like me. Bad business. Plus it's dull.

Good friend in LA of all places, interviews with a company for an HR Director job. Top candidate until...he and the Prez have a conversation about the 'family culture' of the company and how the prez looked forward to meeting his.

Well, his 'family' was his long time partner and two fabulous rescue dogs. (That's why I love him so). He got the hint of single definition of family and withdrew from the search. Yup - LA- Los Angeles.

To change entrenched cultural and institutionalized roadblocks (discrimination) will be a long, tough road regardless of the geography.

HR Wench 6/29/08 8:49 AM  

HR Maven - Thanks for sharing this story. Very true that regardless of geography, there are all kinds of opinions out there. Where I live, in the Pacific Northwest, we have mostly very open minded and accepting people. However, we do have "pockets" where people are extremely distrustful of "outsiders". There is even a town that, up until a few years ago, had pictures up in its City Hall of KKK members in full "battle dress". I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes.

Mark Stelzner 6/30/08 11:20 AM  

Sorry I'm late to the dance on this one but did want to post my thoughts (that and two cents will buy you a gumball).

This controversy disturbs me greatly as it continues to reinforce the stereotypical view that HR is simply a talking head for the whims of management versus the sole source of safe representation of employee's needs. I have seen many positive messages supporting Jessica's point (which is an important one) and a few fence-sitters that appear too afraid to disturb the delicate sensibilities of a closed minded constituency whom they represent. I've also seen reference to geography in this debate, and let me say that having lived and worked in the South, the West, the Midwest and now the East, this is not a regional challenge.

Even if one has some ill-advised moral high ground upon which they perch, let's think of this issue purely from an economical standpoint. We are in a talent management crisis. Highly qualified and desirable talent exist. We should seek to employ all available talent to meet or exceed our business objectives. GLBT personnel represent a tremendous market, estimated by some at over $720B in 2008 expenditures alone.

It is the last day of June in the year 2008. How can we continue to take one step forward and two steps back.....

Franny 6/30/08 11:54 AM  

As a lesbian in HR, I have two major points -
a) It's HR's job to accurately represent the culture of the organization to applicants, so they can decide how well they'll fit.
b) It's also HR's job to optimize staffing - so if the company is losing people who might have been great catches because the company culture is unfriendly to (women, GLBTs, Muslims, etc) who would do well otherwise in that industry and/or company, HR needs to work on helping the organization better attract and engage that demographic. It's a tough row to hoe but if you think of it as a business issue rather than a moral issue, it gets better play in the boardroom.

Me personally: I live in the heart of "middle America", Houston, and when I interview I ask at least a couple of current staffers to tell me about the most successful women in that company, and the most successful gay or lesbian employee. If they pause or swallow hard at either question, I move on, and I let the hiring manager know why. HR is way too "social" of a role for people to be uncomfortable working with me because of something like that.

ENDA is most likely never going to be passed. People can and do get fired just for being gay, and they can't do a thing about it. So smart, hard working A Player GLBT employees just make sure they're working where they'll be valued. If that's not your company, that's your problem, not ours.

Michael 6/30/08 1:17 PM  

Opinions don't kill people, people kill people, sometimes even for the very issue discussed in this post.

I am so sick and tired of worrying about this stuff.


I wish John McCain was more worried about the price of gas or the consequences of invading Iran than he was over saving the so-called sanctity of the American Family.

I don't collect saly and pepper shakers, but I do have a fairly wide assortment of people around me, some of whom manage to be gay. One close relative is going through relationship strife and stands to lose a good deal of personal $ and belongings because we don't have a sane way to deal with the "gay" issue legally and civilly.

I forst confronted this topic in 1989 when I met my very first HIV positive employee. He was a wonderful young man, an engineer and an athlete working in sales. He barely filled out the very baggy suit he was wearing in the office that day when he came in to check on how life insurance and long term diability worked.

His question to me was "What happens to long term disability if you know you are terminal?".

He was 28 years old.

He died two months later.

He never had the chance to know what it was like to be married. Why...in this day and age are we still fighting this...and race..and fair pay...i mean, WTF????

I'm with Laurie...sometimes I hate HR. And in the words of my 33 year old son, Bryan, "Sometimes, people really suck."

I live for those days when we don't.

HR Wench 6/30/08 3:46 PM  

Youse guys! I am amazed and humbled and happy as heck this post has generated so much discussion. Thank you ALL for your participation and thoughts!!!

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